One Piece 597

[zhadrani]

So. :|a

I reacted, let us say, Not Well to the Zoro section of OP 597, and it's only been through much ranting to whiteadelphi and soul-searching and awesome conversation that I've been mostly reconciled to it. Not entirely! There remain issues, but at least I'm not making lineface every time I think about it, now. Instead of reiterating, I'm just going to link to the post WA made that contains basically our whole IM conversation on the topic.

To clarify before we even start, my problem wasn't at all to do with the plain fact that Zoro asked Mihawk to train him and humbled himself terribly in the process. In fact, that hardly comes up in our massive combined tl;dr AIM conversation, and I'm surprised that a lot of people seem to have issues with it. Not like he hasn't shown that he'll sacrifice his dream for Luffy at this point, after all. And yeah, it's painful and shaming and he had to throw away his pride to do it, and he doesn't care, he'll get on his hands and knees and press his forehead to the floor and hold there, bleeding all over Mihawk's carpet until the man agrees to train him, and then look so thrilled and happy when he finally does (>.> socute). I thought that was awesome, actually, it hammers in just how far he'll go—he won't just die to protect Luffy and his dream and the rest of his crew, he'll humiliate himself in front of his ultimate rival and live and get stronger in order to better support him, too.

...Which is the thought which sparks my ACTUAL problem. >_____> So here are the links.

These are the Original Problems With the Chapter.

And here's the conversation we had earlier today exploring Zoro's motives and why it went down the way it did. WA's previous post has the beginnings of some speculation too, in the comments.

There's some good stuff in the comments to that post by now, too, and...y'know, I thought I'd have more to say in addition/expansion, but I think I'll leave it at that for now. :|a

With regard to the rest of the chapter, I'm pretty sadface that the crew will be apart for two – freaking – years; I knew there'd be a timeskip coming up but I thought it'd be a lot shorter than that, and I'm still a little shakey on how Luffy came to decide this was the best way to do things given how much he wanted to see his nakama a few chapters ago and the fact that he doesn't even know where they are right now or if they're alright. (Perhaps Rayleigh told Luffy that Kuma told him they'd been sent to places that would make them stronger? But that doesn't make sense, I don't think Kuma managed to say all that to Rayleigh, IDEK.)

Also, they'll have been apart for longer than they've even known each other! ...Not that that will diminish the strength of their bonds in any fashion, of course, but still. There'll have to be a whole new getting-to-know-you-again part when they get back, which...okay, admittedly, could be interesting. >.> Not to mention WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO LOOK LIKE, OMG. I'm going to trust Oda on this, he'll probably win me over, but there's just no preventing a certain amount of saaaaadface at missing all of that time with them and them missing all of that time with each other.

I did love finally getting a really thorough explanation to Haki, at last—and wheeee, all the examples of it over the years getting tied together, so genius, Oda. I loved all of it, and oh man Luffy is going to be powered up so epically with two years training in it! 8DD

...And I think I'm not alone in suspecting that Zoro has been picking up the edges of some haki techniques as he goes along, too (sensing T-Bone on the train tracks before he was in sight, split-second knowledge of where his opponents will strike, manifesting his spirit externally with Ashura, among other examples). And he's going to need to learn to cut logia, anyway, and the rest of the crew will probably be learning some of this stuff, too, given that they're the Pirate King's crew and Must Be Epic (like Rayleigh! :D)

...And that's all for tonight, folks. >.>

Edit: Now with links actually added, derp.

Comments

[serrende.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! Thanks for linking your discussion - it was very cool to read about, lots of stuff I hadn't considered at all. I found some of my own assumptions challenged as well, which is good. (I don't think of Zoro as a leader and find it very hard to picture him as the captain of a crew, but I don't picture him as a follower, either, except to Luffy of course. I tend to think of him more as a kind of lone wolf who's grown into a member of a close-knit team/surrogate family almost despite himself - But then I remember he hung out with Johnny and Yosaku, and was definitely the leader of that small group if anyone was... so maybe it's just my imagination that's a little faulty.)

But Luffy (and Coby) did save Zoro's life, after all, and I think Zoro's always felt himself tied to Luffy because of that, even though he repaired the favour immediately when he struck down Morgan. That wasn't getting even, that was serving the captain he'd already accepted. Very true that Zoro didn't need Luffy to set out on his goal - he'd already been doing that, for some time - but that goes for Robin as well. But I think he needed other things - an anchor, a sense of belonging; something else to do than just chasing Mihawk.

I wasn't very taken with this chapter in general, but I'm not sure if that's chiefly as a reaction to the confirmation of the time skip, and the length of it (I'm not really happy about it, either :/), rather than to any specific scene. I did think it weird that there seemed no point to Zoro apparently not getting the message in the last chapter, as it seemed to set things up for an epiphany in this chapter which I assumed in turn would reveal more about Luffy, Zoro and how Zoro views Luffy and the situation. That obviously didn't happen.

I agree that it would have been great to get some more insight into Zoro's head between volume 1 and Kuma wrt about when he started to put Luffy's dream ahead of his own. And does this mean that he on some level has accepted Kuina's death now (as I usually assume he hasn't)? Would he now be able to face Tashigi without flinching?

Maybe Water 7 in general and losing Merry in particular didn't have something to do with it. But it would have been nice to get more clues. Generally I appreciate that Oda doesn't hit us over the head with characterisation stuff, but at times you want to see more.

It's not the first time I feel it would have been valuable to get more insight into Zoro's thoughts and feelings, either. Sometimes it feels as if Oda's going overboard on his stoicism, especially when it's extended not just to the face he shows others but to what we readers get to know as well. One of my lingering problems with chapter 438 is just that it would have felt better if we'd have seen any indication - whether spoken, thought, or non-verbal - that Zoro would have been sad if Usopp had stayed behind on Water 7. I assume he wouldn't have been fine with that, given other things we know about Zoro - and I would very much dislike making the opposite assumption. But it would have felt much better knowing for sure. But just as with this chapter, it's not something Oda's likely to revisit. *sigh*

Er... sorry for rambling so much! Um... I agree about Zoro and haki techniques. Wouldn't hearing the breath of all things come into haki territory, too, much like mantra?

Sorry for lateness, I'm out of town & have limited net access >_>a (also this account is still me)

[threeswordsoul.livejournal.com]

I love rambling, especially intelligent and thought-provoking rambling, so yaaaay! :Db Um, massive tl;dr in response probably indicates that, lol. >.>

I'm super-glad that our back-and-forth could provoke some thoughts! I'm actually always a little surprised to hear people not think Zoro is a leader-type, but I probably I shouldn't be since I also see him as baseline comfortable as a lone-wolf, more inclined toward and content with being on his own, though as with Johnny and Yosaku it's clear he's alright with traveling with people, too. I think it's more that he has plenty of the qualities necessary to be a leader (natural confidence and decisiveness, etc.,) and they pop up quite readily and without effort and make people look to him when he's put in a situation where there's a need for someone in the leader-role but it's currently empty (with Johnny and Yosaku, or when Luffy isn't around, with the rest of the Straw Hats.) I classify him as a leader-type because of that, since even lone-wolves get put in group scenarios sometimes and when they do the underlying leader-or-follower inclination tends to come out, and lone-wolves just generally don't tend to 'follow', in the first place. And the vice-captain needs to be a leader-too, to an extent, for things to work. For example, Rayleigh and Ben Beckman, I would probably quantify them the same way.

[threeswordsoul.livejournal.com]

But Luffy (and Coby) did save Zoro's life, after all, and I think Zoro's always felt himself tied to Luffy because of that, even though he repaired the favour immediately when he struck down Morgan. That wasn't getting even, that was serving the captain he'd already accepted. Very true that Zoro didn't need Luffy to set out on his goal - he'd already been doing that, for some time - but that goes for Robin as well.

Hmmm. See, the thing with this is, I think, that both WA and I kind of dismissed the Morgan “rescue” from way back in the beginning of our discussion as not being quite comparable to the ways Luffy inspired, saved, and/or enabled the dreams of the rest of the crew—he saved Usopp's village and his personal friends and believed unconditionally that he could be a brave warrior of the sea; he listened eagerly to the story of All Blue and didn't scoff at it, and then inspired Sanji to stop chaining himself to the Baratie because of his guilt and debt and to pursue that dream (although I also feel that watching Zoro's utter abandon to his dream while fighting Mihawk contributed to this); he liberated Nami and her village from Arlong and just relentlessly demonstrated over and over again that she was his nakama and he'd never go back on that; he saved Chopper's country and celebrated without fear and with inclusiveness his 'monster' status and dragged him out to sea, which was always his dream; he chased Robin to the Government's doorstep and declared war on them and got her to admit she wanted to live and be with them purely because 'she's their nakama', when she had always, always been betrayed before; saving Robin included helping Franky by extension, but also Luffy's unflinching declaration of war to save his nakama was a slap to the face of the government that killed Franky's mentor, as well as the fact that Franky's own ultimate dream (that he had given up, before Luffy came along) is tied to and enabled by Luffy completing his journey on Sunny; and then of course Luffy almost literally pulled Brook out of a grey, tragic, 50-year nakamaless purgatory and brought him the news of Laboon's survival and continuing fidelity.

On the other hand, I personally have a very hard time seeing the thing with Morgan as Luffy really 'saving' Zoro at all, and I definitely don't see anything like the catharses with the other crewmates I mention above. I think I don't quite see it as 'saving', strictly, in large part because Zoro was very laughably more powerful than his 'captors', had agreed to be held there on a compassionate whim, and basically just required somebody to cut the rope (not necessarily Luffy, Coby was working on that, too) and get him his swords so he could nonchalantly bust asses. The whole thing took like 15 minutes, probably. :|a

And I've actually never quite believed that Zoro felt tied to Luffy due to that 'act of being saved', specifically. (Despite Coby's line of 'Zoro-san is the only one who can save Luffy-san, Luffy-san is the only one who can save Zoro-san', or however that went.) I've always thought it was Luffy's behavior during that whole incident that created the initial acceptance. It seemed like Zoro observed all of Luffy's words and deeds while he was tied to that cross—that he was crazy enough to walk into the Marine courtyard and try to recruit Zoro, and then that he was moral and straightforward and unwavering enough to just reject and tear down the people perpetrating the injustice, etc.—and then their instinctive understanding and wordless rapport slotted into place and he just went '...Hah. Okay, I like this guy. Yeah, fine, I can follow him—up to a point.' At that point it didn't feel like Zoro's choice to follow him had much in common with the others', in the sense of 'inspiring me to my dream/enabling my dream/freeing me from bonds and demons (imposed either by myself or by other people)/rescuing me from a real, frightening threat/giving me a place to belong and people who care about me, at last'.

[threeswordsoul.livejournal.com]

And okay, that last, 'giving me a place to belong and people who care about me, at last'. I guess that would be the other thing that you brought up that would maybe have tied Zoro to Luffy in a similar way to the rest—I think he needed other things - an anchor, a sense of belonging; something else to do than just chasing Mihawk. Well, the stuff I've talked about above is part of the reason I don't really agree with that—actually, no, that's not quite true, I agree with it as a reader, that joining Luffy and gaining the rest of the crew as important nakama was definitely great for Zoro's character in this sense, and part of the poignancy of his development is I think that over the course of their journey he himself realized that it was good for him and that it had become extremely important and necessary, and that probably had something to do with his shift in priorities.

What I disagree with is that it had anything to do with why Zoro initially agreed to follow Luffy; that it was important back then. To me, that line Zoro gave cautioning Luffy that Zoro would only follow him as long as Luffy didn't interfere with his goals, and that if he did Zoro would cut Luffy down himself, indicates quite strongly that 'an achor, a sense of belonging, something else to do than just chasing Mihawk' wasn't part of his priorities in agreeing to be Luffy's first nakama. I never saw any indication that he felt a lack of 'a place to belong and people who care about me, at last', much less to the extent that Robin, for example, did (and to some degree Nami, although she had her village, sister, and Gen-san), or that he placed any importance on it, at the beginning. (Possibly because he still had his sensei back in Shimotsuki, had no angst about being an outsider in that sense, and had always been very self-contained and self-sufficient, to begin with.)

I agree that it would have been great to get some more insight into Zoro's head between volume 1 and Kuma wrt about when he started to put Luffy's dream ahead of his own. And does this mean that he on some level has accepted Kuina's death now (as I usually assume he hasn't)? Would he now be able to face Tashigi without flinching?

Hmmmmm. Thought-provoking, thought-provoking. As a disclaimer, I need to think on this more thoroughly, so I could possibly change my mind about this later or there could be holes in my thinking, but my initial reaction is to say no, I don't think putting Luffy's dream ahead of his own has caused him to accept Kuina's death more than he had before, and no, I think Tashigi's face would still poke sore places where he wouldn't be comfortable being poked. That said, I feel like he'd view not-achieving-his-goal-due-to-death-via-sacrificing-himself-for-Luffy-or-the-crew in the same sense that he'd view not-achieving-his-goal-because-of-death in some other scenario where he's still flinging himself whole-heartedly at his dream and what he believes in and giving 200% of himself to overcome obstacles. We've seen before that he's not afraid of death, and that he's accepted and been unshaken by the possibility that he could die along the way to the goal he's chosen, even if he has no intention of doing so. So with the shift in priorities, I feel like this has just been slotted in with 'inevitabilities, unavoidables, stuff that has to be taken into consideration with respect to how he goes about achieving his goal and remaining true to his own ideals and principles as a swordsman and a human being.' And that really, IF he's actually gotten around to thinking about it, and after working through the initial 'would this be okay with you, Kuina??', he'd realize that yeah. It would be okay with her. She wouldn't be cool with him, I dunno, killing babies or something if it was a choice between that and living and achieving his dream (and neither would he, obviously), and so she wouldn't be okay with him compromising his sense of self in not protecting his nakama in order to achieve his goals, either—and neither would he. ...Of course, no saying that he's actually reached that point in his thinking yet. |D

[threeswordsoul.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it feels as if Oda's going overboard on his stoicism, especially when it's extended not just to the face he shows others but to what we readers get to know as well.

Ohhh man, I agree with this. >_> I think that Zoro may actually be the crewmate that we get the least amount of explicit 'seeing inside his head', both as readers and in what he presents to other people, which is impressive seeing how secretive and closed off say, Robin is about herself and the things she feels. (Although admittedly she's opened up since Enies Lobby.)

With regard to Chapter 438, I agree that it would've been nice to see that touched on more explicitly, just for clarification. I don't know if you care about my views on that, but I always took it as given that he would've been really Not Happy about Usopp not returning and continuing to sail with them. From, like you say, what we know of Zoro, and also his kind of wild, scary grin and 'Usopp...!' at Usopp's screamed apology, and the relieved (and happy, I felt) smile when Usopp and Luffy were blubbering all over each other, even as Zoro was saying they were being idiots, always confirmed that for me, too, but I still agree it would've been great to see it spelled out more clearly. Like...he would've stayed stoic on the surface and remained firm about it if Usopp hadn't shown up, because everything he said still applied and it was Necessary for him to be a hardass about it because their goals, dreams, ideals, bonds as nakama following a captain, etc., would become meaningless if they're not given the weight and respect and consideration they're due and were treated lightly, but he, personally, would still have felt the same loss and sadness as the rest. Usopp's nakama.

Wouldn't hearing the breath of all things come into haki territory, too, much like mantra?

… :Da Huh. I was trying to find a way to fit hearing the breath of all things into the framework of haki, as well, but couldn't figure how cutting steel would fit in when the same ability didn't seem to apply to cutting logia, but I'm starting to wonder if it's just a matter of degree, and 'not yet' and 'more training of the same ability' for Zoro to accomplish that, and relating the breath of all things to haki works for me as well, too, given how Zoro used it to tell where damn near everything around him was in Alabasta when he used it—the falling rocks, his sword under the rocks, etc. :|a I really wish we'd seen the details of him using this ability again explicitly in another situation down the line, because the spots where we've seen 'mantra'-like abilities later on have been really limited in scope (T-Bone on the train tracks, as I mentioned), and not really in combat situations. Although maybe anticipating where fast, Soru-using opponents like Kaku were going to strike and blocking readily would count...? Maybe not, that could just be anticipation that anybody could do.



.....Oh good god, that really turned into an essay, I'm sorry! *____*

[serrende.livejournal.com]

I like long posts! Merging replies here.

Okay, you've convinced about Zoro's introduction for the most part: yes, it's mostly about him watching how Luffy acts and finding he approves of him. (Though in a way I think that's true for all of them. At least, I don't feel that anyone chiefly joined out of gratitude.) But that's similar to Robin, too, though it's hard to say when she can have said to truly have joined the crew. Maybe not until Enies Lobby - but the crew definitely thought of her as one of them before that, and so did Robin of them. ("At last I'd found comrades I could trust in..." she said in volume 41.) Still, I agree that Zoro's situation is unique in a different way. Also,

What I disagree with is that it had anything to do with why Zoro initially agreed to follow Luffy; that it was important back then.

Yeah, you're right about that.

And it's true that Zoro didn't need all that much help from Luffy and Coby in order to get out of there. Still, saying Zoro wasn't actually saved seems to me to take most of the tension away from that story, plus also making Coby's first act of bravery unnecessary. I mean, yes, he didn't need to be there in the first place - but then again, the fact that Helmeppo tricked him into it may indicate that Zoro didn't always make the wisest decisions on his own, back then - but still, if Luffy had just left him there, Zoro would still have been executed and died, no matter how pathetic his captors were. He wasn't yet strong enough to break out by himself. And Coby, who first thought of Zoro as a scary demon best left to his fate, wouldn't have done anything if Luffy hadn't been there.

So, maybe not really a big life-changing event by itself - but it did make it possible for Zoro to keep living. I kinda feel that should count for something, at least.

Besides, putting Zoro basically above the others makes it feel like he's looking down on them all condescending, and I don't like to picture that... :( - Although I do realise my emotional reaction is no actual counter-argument!

I'm actually always a little surprised to hear people not think Zoro is a leader-type,

Yeah, I can't really explain why I feel that way, especially since at several times we've seen people express surprise that it's Luffy who's the captain rather than Zoro. Though if it helps I feel the same way about Ben Beckman and possibly even Rayleigh.

A good while back, reading someone's stray comment on the net made me wonder who among Luffy's crew might under the right circumstances become pirate captains in their own right - quite possibly not involving any of the other Strawhats. I realised that Nami seemed the easiest to picture for me, despite her relatively low fighting power. "Captain Nami" has a nice ring to it. ;) Franky the ex-gang leader and Brook were next after that - Brook doesn't feel like a true leader-type to me, but he's been a captain before, so I don't think he'd have much trouble with assuming the mantle himself. Usopp and Chopper would both need a lot more confidence and ability to stay calm first, but it doesn't feel impossible as long as the set-up means a crew that would respect them (and Usopp, at least, has the inclination for it, of course ;)). I got the feeling that Sanji would be _very_ reluctant in most cases unless it's a restaurant ship; but still, I could see him forcing himself to at least step in temporarily until they could find someone better suited for it.

But with Zoro and Robin, I just couldn't picture them as captains at all. And I still don't really know why. But again, it may well just be due to my flawed imagination.